Display as a link instead, People tend to forget, aportion of the street2seat WOFT applicants areprior service. If I am reading this correctly, this applies to officers that attend initial flight school after October 1st 2021. My talk with Stan covered all of these, so my next question was, How long were you planning on being involved in military aviation then? Even if the increase in commitment lowers the civilian WOFT applicantnumbers, the in house career Enlisted pool will fill the void. If you quit during flight school you are still obligated to fulfill the ADSO and reassigned to the needs of the Army. One problem with pilots is that we don't age well (I'm not a military aviator, just a private pilot) so there would be an issue of reaching a physical condition expiration date at some point. No. If the civilians don't want to join, not a problem. U.S. Army UH-60L Black Hawk helicopters from the New Jersey National Guards 1-150th Assault Helicopter Battalion sit on the flight line during sunset at the Army Aviation Support Facility, Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, N.J., Nov. 8, 2018. Were you part of the 6 year or 10 year ADSO group? I don't know too many that would care to be told to mop the floor of the pilot's office, fill the refrigerator, go help wash the aircraft the things that junior warrants typically do when they are new to a unit out of flight school. For more information, please see our This is the second part of a series about choosing between military and civilian career options. So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a suddenBAM! There are many complexities in these advanced helicopters, which translates to increased costs in flight hours, maintenance, and training requirements, Kearns said. Yes, they will retain aviators when the quality of life increases for aviation, not just grinding us into the ground until a new command comes along every 12-18 months and does it all over again. It also left plenty of time to have a normal life and spend time with one's family. But at what cost? Holla at yo boy and lemme know what y'all are thinking. I think that mindser still exists. The impact on warrant officers may be as severe as the impact on would-be aviation lieutenants. . In an all-volunteer force, you won't be ready if most of your personnel in a critical branch want to get out. The 10-year service obligation is the result of a numbers-related calculus related to Army manning and will not address the problems that make Aviators leave. Unfortunately, it will likely not have the opportunity to do so due to the negative impact it will have on retention in the near term. Although 10 years of Active Duty feels like a long time, its not that much longer than the alternatives. I've been in the Army for a long time, and it's never been worse than now. The service should find a better way of addressing its shortage of pilots. Looks like I'll be doing 10 years insteaddang. I assume if you're not finished withflight school by 30 Sep 20, your commitment is just as long as the Air Force if not a little bit longer. You're losing highly skilled aviators that took millions of dollars and 5-10 years to train. People tend to forget, aportion of street to seat WOFT applicants areprior service. I'm roaring and ready to go. Regarding the future Army Commissioned Lts in wishing to branch aviation, that will be an issue next year. Its a lot to ask. How long is Army Warrant Officer School? 10 is nuts. Army and Air Force use this pay. I remember when they tried to get aviators out of the "sack" flight suit and into Nomex BDUs to make them more soldierly. I dont know if there are enough of us to completely change policy, but you need pilots and Im willing to fly for whatever period is demanded of me Im not the only one. That hesitation will open up slots for others further down an OML or with less stellar accomplishments, potentially creating other issues related to performance or aptitude. Look down many of us are after something a little more challenging than the admin tasks of a 1SG or CSM. Since classes are generally pretty well mixed with people with respect to when they commissioned, the first couple of classes must have been a mix of people on the old 6 and the new 10. His deployment vulnerability continues for even a couple of years after his seasoning orders are over. This eventually allows you to retire a full four years earlier than any other military aviator. (USASOC) Commissioned and warrant officers who enter flight training starting in October will incur a 10-year service obligation once they become rated Army aviator s, according to guidance. At least in the early 2000s, there was the ARFORGEN cycle. Your appointment to W1 is a conditional appointment until you graduate flight school so you will revert to whatever enlisted rank you held prior to WOCS. There's the technical expertise that goes along with it as well. By policy, the Army must review the AvB program quarterly to determine the program's effectiveness. This may be because the Army has not undertaken the same in-depth approach to understanding this problem as other services. If ATPs are granted, I'll be the first one to sign up as a warrant officer. Meanwhile students don't do touchdown autorotations and other traditional flight maneuvers. Believe it or not, more than a few fellow senior non rated Army officers are jealous when it comes to flight pay. With this data, the Army can tailor solutions to address the issues that cause pilots to leave. Deployed Civil Engineers https://www.dvidshub.net/image/491088/deployed-civil-engineers. I was just curious if the numbers are stillsimilar. Therefore, this option is virtually free for Aviation officers. junglerekon 2 yr. ago The TIG start isn't official yet. What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? Aviation Warrant Officers have a 10-year service commitment after completing Warrant Officer Flight School. Im would bank on that being the flight school start date officially. I ended up not joining because they increased the ADSO. Those serving on active duty for less than 10 years shall serve in the Ready Reserve as follows: For active duty service less than 8 years, 6 years in the Ready Reserve. SUPERSEDED AR 600-8-29, 02/25/2005; SUPERSEDED ARMY DIR 2019-30, 10/01/2019: Footnotes: https://armypubs.army.mil 03-APPLICABLE TO ARNG UNITS: Security Classification : UNCLASSIFIED: Dist Restriction Code : A APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION IS UNLIMITED: Changes Although its less common to get more than 6-12 months of your ADSC forgiven under this program, that still gets you off Active Duty sooner than expected. Heres some humor about the topic too https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. The, exists specifically for Active Duty pilots willing to make an early commitment to continue their service in the Guard or Reserve. I honestly don't believe that the way out of this is getting more people to fly that have less time available left in their military careers. More career Enlisted apply than street2seat on a yearly basis. I dont think I wouldve taken the 10 Year ADSO, considering that Id just now be ALMOST complete with 10 yrs aviation service. Due to the extreme demand produced by the GWOT, ground formations are insatiable with their demand for aviation support. What is the real answer? For example, if there are 100 ROTC Aviation slots, only 20 can receive the Graduate School Option. They used their experience to mentor and groom all the other warrants around them including myself. I still don't understand how this ADSO extension is going to fix any of those issues, though it may act as a "gotcha" to get people "over the hill" in their Army career where they wouldn't feel like a transition at 10-12 years of service would be a good decision. Deployments are great flying, but terrible on a family. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Its creepy; Im scared Ill go to get out and theyll be like nah man you have 3 more years. How can I show that my BrADSO wasnt taken? There are also a lot of great flying opportunities that you can only do on Active Duty. Hes likely deployed at least 3 times, if not more, and has also spent many weeks TDY. Really sucks for all the street2seat guys coming in or anyone that has prior Aviation experience on the outside. There are a lot more BCTs, SF groups, SFABs and NG/USAR units than there are CABs. Think they will pay the bonuses and flight pay like the other branches? Age should be liftedI'm in my mid fifties and still fly helicopters (civilian market) for a living. Wonder if you can get out early if NOT making CW3 or must you hang around. The increase in the ADSO will have profound affect on USMA/ROTC cadets. As long as hes getting a lot of flight time, Stan should have enough hours for a Restricted ATP rating and a shot at a regional airline job a couple of years before his Active Duty pilot peers. WASHINGTON -- Starting in October, commissioned and warrant officers selected for initial entry flight training will be required to serve at least a decade once they become an Army aviator,. I'm very healthy and fit, I would like to fly helicopters. The U-2 and B-2 are both single-location aircraft, and they go through so much trouble getting their pilots that youd have to try to leave. Very true. With 21 years as a Soldier and 10 years reviewing cost estimates for all equipment tests, Mr. Ysa Garza said everyone always has to be safety conscience in his role as an additional duty safety . By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The increased ADSO shows that senior leaders fundamentally do not understand the issues, and it will do nothing to address the attrition as the years go on. An ADSO twice as long as other branches (for academy grads) or 6+ years longer than ROTC counterparts is only going to deter quality officers that view an additional obligation as a loss of opportunity for careers beyond the service. They can surely find that amount in the Enlisted ranks if WARRANTED. Discretionary pay intended to be used as needed to address retention problems. This used to be unheard of. If you, the seasoned army aviator, were still a senior in college and told that to become an aviator you had to sign for a 10-year + flight school ADSO, would you do it? Looks like 11-11.5 year total commitment. Suddenly, Active Duty isnt looking that bad, right? The Army has more career Enlisted willing to cross over for the opportunity in being an Officer and increasein pay for the family, with or without a degree. It will give you a recruiting advantage because a person out of high school or a year of college could position themselves for later on in life. Has this officially started? ADDED QUESTION: What, in your opinion, is the average view of Army Aviation within the perspectives of your peers? Powered by Invision Community, https://www.reddit.com/r/Armyaviation/comments/gxcx3o/10_year_adso_is_official/. Service commitments are different for Warrant Officers in the Army Reserve and the Army National Guard. pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Press J to jump to the feed. He is the author of thejumo brief, a free weekly newsletter for Army leaders. You can review the rules in AR 600-3 if memory serves. I was enlisted for 6 before I moved over. I dont agree with this decision at all but mean forcing people to stay helps retention because you know, they are forcing you. Again, 70 percent of Army pilots are warrant officers, while Air Force pilots are all officers. Below are the commissioning ADSOs by source of commission: ROTC Non-Scholars have a 3-year commissioning ADSO. TheGovernment Accountability Office reported, for example, that it can take two years and three to eleven million dollars to produce a mission-ready fighter pilot. Can you imagine thesmile on more than a few faces of the last graduating class in Fy 2020 in September. However, we have to look at more than just the number of years involved. June 5, 2020 in General Military Helicopter Discussions. The root cause cited by those transitioning at various levels has related to toxic climates, mismanagement of professional profiles, quality of life, and unit culture. I ended up discovering that Stan was most worried about frequent moves and long deployments stressing his family during an Active Duty flying career. Although busy, it left plenty of downtime for people to have actual lives. There is no reset. Next, hed go to his first assignment. ROTC Scholars have a 4-year commissioning ADSO. You'll be a WO for three-ish years. I'm about to retire from the Air Force as an engineer, O-4, mostly dest and staff job. WASHINGTON -- Starting in October, commissioned and warrant officers selected for initial entry flight training will be required to serve at least a decade once they become an Army aviator, according to an all Army activity message published Aug. 12. I believe you must pass SERE and another leadership course before phase 1 flight. If you havent already read Part, Part 1: Air Force Reserve Officers Training Corps (AFROTC) Table of Contents What is AFROTC? Well look at three cases: Although each of these career paths has potential for almost infinite variation, this diagram represents likely versions of each: Looking at these side by side, its clear why #1 is the Ultimate option. In order to figure out the pros and cons of these different options, we first need to compare the timelines side by side. 10 years after flight school graduation. After all, it is the warrant officer exodus to the airlines that has driven the Armys pilot retention focus. I'm retiring in two years and it's not even to go to the airlines! The UH-72 costs twice as much to operate as a TH-67. Even if the increase in commitment lowers the civilian WOFT applicantnumbers, the in house career Enlisted pool will fill the void. Think about approving some ETPs. im hopeful the army can fix this problem ASAP. In recent discussions with some USAFA cadets, Ive encountered several who actually turned down pilot slots because of that 10-year ADSC. A regular Active Duty pilot career path. So got word that it only affects WOs that complete WOCS after 1 Oct 2020. This is anecdotal, of course, but nowadays there is no appreciable down time. It's a great time to apply to become a pilot, and [Soldiers] can get in with a high school degree. If you graduate after 1 Oct 2020 expect a 10 year service obligation. I just want to stop leaving my family all the time! The policy also applies to Army Reserve and National Guard components, but their obligated service will remain part-time, he said. In the report provided to Congress, however, increasing the service obligation was not mentioned as a possible solution to pilot retention shortfalls. We need people with your background, dedication and professionalism in the warrant officer cohort. Army directive, AD 2021-31, approved Sept. 10, 2021, and effective Oct. 1, 2021, will reset the time required for aviator warrant officers (military occupational specialty 152 through 155) to. Stan is likely to do plenty of TDYs as an engineer and isnt impervious to the threat of deployment. 2-4 more moves for assignments during his Active Duty career. The extended ADSO is intended to increase Army pilots' retention in the future. When I got selected it was a 60/40 split between street to seat and prior. These cadets may not be willing to forgo an extra four years of civilian work experience to serve as aviation officers. How do Warrant Officers get promoted? Fly them that way through the instrument phase, and then conduct a rotary wing transition. At least 70% are not degree holders and they come from all 5 branches of the military. That is not a good thing. No additional time added with a BRADSO. Fixed wing is cheaper. Soldiers pilot a CH-47 Chinook helicopter during a training flight over the city of Erbil in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, May 23, 2020. Given the pandemic's direct and indirect effects on the aviation industry, is that even going to a concern going forward. 9 month rotations are followed by field time, followed by gunnery, followed by EIB, followed by a CTC, etc. That's what the Army was counting on. If youre worried about frequent moves disrupting your family life, picking a community with few basing locations is a viable option for Active Duty. Lets assume though that Stan can get hired by a unit, and is scheduled to start UPT as soon as his regular ADSC is up. Hah right. Hed probably get 2-3 years at that assignment, but if he did a good job the Air Force would offer him the chance to get a Masters Degree through the Air Force Institute of Technology (AFIT) at Wright Patterson AFB. Why or why not? I spend almost 20 years missing opportunities due to family, deployments, school, and fear to change. What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? The new policy doesnt include Soldiers currently in training, said Chief Warrant Officer 5 William S. Kearns, aviation and officer policy integrator for the Armys G-1 office. It just seems like a bait and switch to have me sign a conditional release and paperwork that says 6 years and then say, oh by the way we meant 10. While its not impossible, and, BogiDope can absolutely help you get there. Yes, life there is fantastic, and its important to get there as quickly as you can because Seniority is Everything. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. The Army may producean averageof 1200 Warrant Officers pilots annuallyincluding the Guard and Reserves. I don't want to mess with my retirement, but would love a chance to fly for my country. On this career path, Stan is most likely to leave young kids at home with his spouse while he deploys. The congressional study on pilot retention noted, One of the most important variables in meeting pilot requirements is the retention rate, as this is used to estimate what level of new pilot production is needed.. Do most of your fellow aviators love it? Commercial airlines offer higher salaries, more career control, and stabilization. Also if you have any time in the army at all, youll probably stay until 20 at that point. I agreed and accepted my appointment based on certain terms and the terms are getting altered without my consideration. It doesn't matter that the WOFT contract I signed this week states that it is a 6 year ADSO - the Army can do and change what it wants. The Army lowered the max TIS to 8 years for WOFT applicants a few years ago without a waiver. What I would like to add is almost the opposite of some of these comments. Typical Army of not addressing the real issues. Getting in just under the wire. I greatly appreciate the responsiveness of this community and the depth of feedback y'all have provided, but I want to be sure that the consensus expressed herein is not just the culmination of a bunch of bad experiences but is actually a systemic issue. The Army has had pilot shortages off and on ever since I can remember. All branches in the military are facing a pilot shortage. change without notice to me. I feel that part of the problem is that the Army assessed too many senior NCOs into flight school, which helped get them into this box that they are in. Such changes may affect my status, The Department of Defense released a report in July 2019 that laid out the challenges the military faces with pilot retention and included plans of action from each branch. Back in the 1950s, the Army ask for a waiver in not paying flight pay for its pilots. I wish thiswasa little more clear. Like it or not, you need to accrue that experience one way or another. Ultimately, the Army needs to focus on the retention of quality talent; not on retaining mediocre talent for a longer period of time "because they can mandate longer ADSOs.". Expand The 10 year ADSO will actually prevent all but the youngest street-to-seaters from making the jump, I graduated flight school right after turning 24 and the AF won't take you after 33 without a waiver. While a longer ADSO may help from looking solely at the numbers, it won't be effective at retaining quality talent. You must understand, the Army has an ace in the hole when filling the Warrant Officer aviation pipeline. Does anyone know the current selection breakdown of street to seat vs prior service? Glad I retired when I did. Additionally, Cadets awarded Aviation Branch cannot participate in the Post of Choice program due to the inability to project requirements beyond flight school. Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. It's almost as though he completely and totally ignored the concept of morale and esprit de corps. Were looking at troops selected for flight training in the fiscal year 2021 and beyond.. Additionally, because of rules that the Federal Aviation Administration has put into place over the last decade that make hiring civilian pilots difficult, many regional airlines have created rotary-wing transition programs that substantially ease the transition for Army helicopter pilots. The same goes for great deals like going to Test Pilot School, flying the E-11A BACN, and much more. Well, the short answer is, we dont know. It further acts as a disincentive to those who would like to do the mission, but are unwilling to sacrifice a decade of their time in the event they don't like the lifestyle. I know this is an old article but as a graduating senior this policy is stupid. "Army Aviators don't want to stay in the Army even though we pay them less, deploy them more, and treat them worse than their peers in other branches and civilian careers, so we will just force them to stay in longer. While the ADSO goes into effect in October, its effect on retention wont be felt for at least six years after the first ten-year ADSO class graduateslikely not until late 2027. Although neither has been officially announced, the Army is rumored to be considering two proposals: a provisional status for warrant officer candidates until they graduate flight school and an increase in time-in-grade to make chief warrant officer 2. Stans Active Duty pilot peers would have spent 8-11 years since graduating from college flying for the military full time. Actually, the option to revert to Warrant Officer does exist. Their workload is increased several fold versus the units that they are supporting. All of military aviation is what you make of it. Weve seen, If youre headed to pilot training, you absolutely must read our 3-part series on Winning UPT. However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in 47.) Lasting solutions must come in the form of quality of life and quality of service improvements. Must be a volunteer just like airborne. The best pilots I have served with were prior NCOs. The. Im not young, but Ive aged well and am not ready to resign myself to a desk. Today were going to compare the more common Active Duty career path with the Ultimate one that Ive recommended so heavily. However, if you missed that boat youre far better off taking an Active Duty UPT slot than trying Stans way and doing 5 years as in a non-flying job. Brennan Randelis a captain in the United States Army and is the former commander of Alpha Company, 4-2 Attack Battalion stationed at Camp Humphreys, South Korea. I know there are exceptions to the rule, and I know some people haze junior warrant officers. Perhaps it's just for RLOs but don't count on that. Anyhow, a 10 year ADSO is an ungodly amount for a branch without a proper Aviation culture. There is still an aviation bonus for mid career tracked guys, and while some success has been had with that, I dont know if theyve gotten the response desired for the blood money though. Another anecdote, when I was deployed there was a desire to have experienced cockpits on higher risk/higher visibility missions usually two pilots with 1000+ total hours. Air defense branch offering $60,000 bonus for warrant officers, New aviators to incur 10-year service obligation, New Aviators to incur 10-year service obligation. , I worry that Ive done people a disservice by making the Active Duty pilot career path seem too unattractive. The Army, by contrast, could only say that Army senior leaders recognize there are growing civilian opportunities for Army pilots. Then 10 year service obligation put me right at 20 so Im not too worried about that. But then again, it's 4 more years of employment or should I say deployments. The Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path is to get hired directly by a Guard or Reserve unit and let them send you to UPT. If he didnt go to AFIT, hed have to move for a second assignment anyway. Theres a two word solution to this, age waiver. It involves no effort to understand the underlying factors that cause Army pilots to depart and is nothing more than a surface-level solution to a fundamental problem. Ideally, hed also earn his Instrument Rating, and build as much experience as possible. After AFIT, Stan would owe a payback for school and might have to serve longer than his 5-year non-pilot ADSC.